This podcast is very impressive: intelligent questions from host Debra Shushan and answers equally so from Prof. Bartov. His view of Israel and Zionism over the recent and decades, what it has come to, I connect to completely. Maybe I will stop talking about the other Zionism now i.e. that there is more than one. That Zionism that I knew towards its end as a viable movement in Israel, is gone.
This now sadly is what won- this "Zionism" used by so many as a pejorative.
The trauma that Jews feel, passed on from the Holocaust is present as a force, played upon today. "Never again"- not about "not this to anyone" endures as "never again to us Jews". So Israel becomes the oppressor. Simone Weil writes about this.
The exceptionalism Israel enjoys, to do what (anything) it feels it must existentially, is changing. Guilt felt by others, Europe, Americans (Biden most recently) from WW2 is wearing thin. Israeli militarism feeds anti-Semitism. But Israel has been allowed- allowed even to have an undeclared nuclear weapon. Allowed to maintain the claim that Iran cannot have one. So Iran is bombed for aiming to proceed because of these threats against it. Iran will get nukes, needs to, to protect itself.
I have watched this change in Israel over the years in friends and family there. They live in denial of the Palestinians and Arabs rights and even existence and they viscerally hate them. This has been cultivated. It's accepted socially.
Omar says it: dehumanization.. just what was done to us. Eye for an eye. Older leftists we knew and could agree with changed to a more hard line. So now settlers are okay; some relatives.
To feel this makes it near impossible to relate or even visit anymore. The "situation" cannot be avoided. It's there 360 degrees around. When last there, it was very uncomfortable moving around.
This is not the Israel my grandmother was thinking of in 1948 when she called herself a Zionist and kept a bottle of sand from Jerusalem for her grave here. Now her children's bodies are being shipped for burial there in special cemeteries- for those with such deep feelings about Israel. The lifelong wish for peace...
Thank you! I’m glad you connected with this podcast. It’s a dark situation, no doubt, but I think it’s important to remember that there are still passionate activists and regular folks in Israel-Palestine who are fighting for a future based on equality, freedom, justice, and peace. There are not nearly enough of them, of course, but they are working against the odds and deserve our solidarity and support. That’s why I highlight many leaders and their organizations on The Debrief.
Thank you for what you are doing. I hope it helps to bring people together or discuss and maybe see better. I think though most Israelis are living in denial everyday trying to go about their lives as normal- they cannot really. They have solidarity amongst themselves and some here and insularity. The violence- threats and counter threats keep this going. We try to throw our hands up. I did, do. Oil is part of this in a big way now especially if it was ever not so much connected. I am going to listen to the earlier Bartov podcast. Thank you again- and thanks for having Prof Bartov.
Brilliant interview. I just started reading this book, and will probably listen again to Bartov’s explanations afterwards. Thank you to Debra and Omer.
Such an important interview. Bartov speaks with clarity and authorityabout a problem clouded by disinformation and so much bad faith. He also speaks directly to Americans and American Jews who have been cowed too long by sclerotic Dems and the deification ( his insight) of the Holocaust. Thank you Dr Shushan.
Nick Kristof's today in the NYT horrifies me.That Jews would conduct themselves this way after what was done to the Jewish people throughout history and especially during the Holocaust is incomprehensible... and they do it with justification born of hate- a hate that is communally nurtured as acceptable if not necessary.
Kristof didn't break any news that wasn't already out there and documented by others (including B'Tselem, PCATI, the UN), but it was gutting to read the accounts and know that this terror is still being perpetrated with impunity.
Thank you for your response.. I know dehumanization and hate is not news. I hear it from my own who support Israel unconditionally and hate the Arabs, all of them. This level of atrocity, though, I was unaware of maybe because I avoid looking for those reports. What good are the reports doing? Is Israel untouchable? (That is changing I think). And this is done by settlers who are presumably supposedly religious- stealing land. Allowed.
Jews do this..Jews allow this... Jew support this. No different than what any of the worst of humanity did to the Jewish people. This should be in the NYT news reporting. headlined. But certainly not covered over, avoided-- which it has been. These are horrible crimes.
It really bothers my conscience and I cannot understand why it does not bother every Jew especially, a perversion and distortion of the meaning of "never again".
Another brilliant discussion. Omer Bartov is an impressive individual.
Debra, please stop having guests who have written books. I just ordered Mr. Bartov's book, but I'm falling badly behind with the unread books piling up at the same time the days I have left alive are diminishing too quickly.
I hate to give any sort of credence to Jewish exceptionalism - the world would be a better place if both Jews and antisemites were not so convinced that Jews are so damn interesting - but it’s impossible not to recognize that this conversation does credit to Jewish culture, humanity and wisdom. One can quibble with Pr. Bartov’s rosy view of the beginnings of Zionism, but surely even those who do have to admire his uncompromising clarity on where Israelis and Palestinians stand now.
Mr. Bartov, I understand why you said what you did about Trump stopping Israel from killing, and I feel certain that you understand that Trump did that for Trump and not to save the life of a single person -- American, Jew, or Iranian. A man who threatens to utterly destroy an entire country is not interested in saving lives. Of course, you are right, not killing people is desirable regardless of the why.
There is now a very serious question about the mental health of Trump. He seems to be "losing it" badly. What that means is his original intellectual deficits, which were significant and made him both profoundly ignorant and unpredictable, since he acts on whims and in response to perceived insults, are now more dangerous than ever. Many Americans have no confidence at all that Trump is capable of rational behavior. The most recent polling reflects the belief that the majority of Americans no longer believe that Trump is capable mentally or physically of being president. Many of us knew that in 2016, the mental part, and again in 2024, but tragically the American electorate is itself not able to reliably support democracy. The 2024 presidential vote made that clear. The fact that voters repeatedly elect Republicans, who don't deliver anything meaningful for their supporters, is further evidence of the voters' failings. Sadly, the Democratic Party has failed miserably to make itself a compelling alternative.
That was intense! Good questions! It's an interesting time with his book and Molly Crabapple's book both sitting on my "to read" pile.
This was an absolutely incredible conversation. Thank you both!
Thank you so much, Jess!
One of the best episodes!
This podcast is very impressive: intelligent questions from host Debra Shushan and answers equally so from Prof. Bartov. His view of Israel and Zionism over the recent and decades, what it has come to, I connect to completely. Maybe I will stop talking about the other Zionism now i.e. that there is more than one. That Zionism that I knew towards its end as a viable movement in Israel, is gone.
This now sadly is what won- this "Zionism" used by so many as a pejorative.
The trauma that Jews feel, passed on from the Holocaust is present as a force, played upon today. "Never again"- not about "not this to anyone" endures as "never again to us Jews". So Israel becomes the oppressor. Simone Weil writes about this.
The exceptionalism Israel enjoys, to do what (anything) it feels it must existentially, is changing. Guilt felt by others, Europe, Americans (Biden most recently) from WW2 is wearing thin. Israeli militarism feeds anti-Semitism. But Israel has been allowed- allowed even to have an undeclared nuclear weapon. Allowed to maintain the claim that Iran cannot have one. So Iran is bombed for aiming to proceed because of these threats against it. Iran will get nukes, needs to, to protect itself.
I have watched this change in Israel over the years in friends and family there. They live in denial of the Palestinians and Arabs rights and even existence and they viscerally hate them. This has been cultivated. It's accepted socially.
Omar says it: dehumanization.. just what was done to us. Eye for an eye. Older leftists we knew and could agree with changed to a more hard line. So now settlers are okay; some relatives.
To feel this makes it near impossible to relate or even visit anymore. The "situation" cannot be avoided. It's there 360 degrees around. When last there, it was very uncomfortable moving around.
This is not the Israel my grandmother was thinking of in 1948 when she called herself a Zionist and kept a bottle of sand from Jerusalem for her grave here. Now her children's bodies are being shipped for burial there in special cemeteries- for those with such deep feelings about Israel. The lifelong wish for peace...
Sigh.. thank you
Thank you! I’m glad you connected with this podcast. It’s a dark situation, no doubt, but I think it’s important to remember that there are still passionate activists and regular folks in Israel-Palestine who are fighting for a future based on equality, freedom, justice, and peace. There are not nearly enough of them, of course, but they are working against the odds and deserve our solidarity and support. That’s why I highlight many leaders and their organizations on The Debrief.
Thank you for what you are doing. I hope it helps to bring people together or discuss and maybe see better. I think though most Israelis are living in denial everyday trying to go about their lives as normal- they cannot really. They have solidarity amongst themselves and some here and insularity. The violence- threats and counter threats keep this going. We try to throw our hands up. I did, do. Oil is part of this in a big way now especially if it was ever not so much connected. I am going to listen to the earlier Bartov podcast. Thank you again- and thanks for having Prof Bartov.
Thank you both for this interview. Professor Bartov explained/answered so many questions that I have had since Oct 7. I am very grateful.
So glad to hear that, Miriam!
Incredible conversation. Thank you!
Thanks, Aimee!
Brilliant interview. I just started reading this book, and will probably listen again to Bartov’s explanations afterwards. Thank you to Debra and Omer.
Such an important interview. Bartov speaks with clarity and authorityabout a problem clouded by disinformation and so much bad faith. He also speaks directly to Americans and American Jews who have been cowed too long by sclerotic Dems and the deification ( his insight) of the Holocaust. Thank you Dr Shushan.
Nick Kristof's today in the NYT horrifies me.That Jews would conduct themselves this way after what was done to the Jewish people throughout history and especially during the Holocaust is incomprehensible... and they do it with justification born of hate- a hate that is communally nurtured as acceptable if not necessary.
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/11/opinion/israel-palestinians-sexual-violence.html?unlocked_article_code=1.hlA.N66y.eqF0_ON6c0-6&smid=url-share
Kristof didn't break any news that wasn't already out there and documented by others (including B'Tselem, PCATI, the UN), but it was gutting to read the accounts and know that this terror is still being perpetrated with impunity.
Thank you for your response.. I know dehumanization and hate is not news. I hear it from my own who support Israel unconditionally and hate the Arabs, all of them. This level of atrocity, though, I was unaware of maybe because I avoid looking for those reports. What good are the reports doing? Is Israel untouchable? (That is changing I think). And this is done by settlers who are presumably supposedly religious- stealing land. Allowed.
Jews do this..Jews allow this... Jew support this. No different than what any of the worst of humanity did to the Jewish people. This should be in the NYT news reporting. headlined. But certainly not covered over, avoided-- which it has been. These are horrible crimes.
It really bothers my conscience and I cannot understand why it does not bother every Jew especially, a perversion and distortion of the meaning of "never again".
Another brilliant discussion. Omer Bartov is an impressive individual.
Debra, please stop having guests who have written books. I just ordered Mr. Bartov's book, but I'm falling badly behind with the unread books piling up at the same time the days I have left alive are diminishing too quickly.
I was going to message with a request for an interview with Bartov. so disappointed I won’t be able to listen in real time.
I’m on it! :)
Sorry you can’t join us live, Marcia. LMK if you have a question in mind for Omer.
I hate to give any sort of credence to Jewish exceptionalism - the world would be a better place if both Jews and antisemites were not so convinced that Jews are so damn interesting - but it’s impossible not to recognize that this conversation does credit to Jewish culture, humanity and wisdom. One can quibble with Pr. Bartov’s rosy view of the beginnings of Zionism, but surely even those who do have to admire his uncompromising clarity on where Israelis and Palestinians stand now.
Mr. Bartov, I understand why you said what you did about Trump stopping Israel from killing, and I feel certain that you understand that Trump did that for Trump and not to save the life of a single person -- American, Jew, or Iranian. A man who threatens to utterly destroy an entire country is not interested in saving lives. Of course, you are right, not killing people is desirable regardless of the why.
There is now a very serious question about the mental health of Trump. He seems to be "losing it" badly. What that means is his original intellectual deficits, which were significant and made him both profoundly ignorant and unpredictable, since he acts on whims and in response to perceived insults, are now more dangerous than ever. Many Americans have no confidence at all that Trump is capable of rational behavior. The most recent polling reflects the belief that the majority of Americans no longer believe that Trump is capable mentally or physically of being president. Many of us knew that in 2016, the mental part, and again in 2024, but tragically the American electorate is itself not able to reliably support democracy. The 2024 presidential vote made that clear. The fact that voters repeatedly elect Republicans, who don't deliver anything meaningful for their supporters, is further evidence of the voters' failings. Sadly, the Democratic Party has failed miserably to make itself a compelling alternative.
Not frozen for me
???