Thank you for all you do Debra! - and sharing this amazingly chilling, but informative and necessary discussion. From an Australian in Europe who cares deeply what’s happening in the US - because it affects ALL of us 🥺✊🏽🙏
I think there is something missing in Mr. Cirincione's explanations. In a "normal" presidential administration that isn't a cult of personality, the president will appoint competent advisors and the military will not have to deal with a religious zealot like Hegseth, who is a mindless clown. What the US has not done is accept the possibility of our electorate ever being so irresponsible that it would elect someone like Trump. For my part, I simply don't have and never have had that level of confidence in our electorate. Therefore, we didn't think we needed the kind of safeguards against the use of nuclear weapons that Mr Cirincione talks about.
In an ordinary administration, if a competent Secretary of Defense and the military leadership understood that a president was no longer mentally fit to hold responsibility for the use and control of nuclear weapons, they could, in fact, refuse to follow the president's order to employ nuclear weapons in a case where they were clearly not warranted. Mr. Cirincione says that the person who refuses is fired and another person is brought in who will follow the order. But in the circumstances I am describing, that wouldn't work. If there were agreement that the president was "nuts," then the order to fire someone would similarly be ignored. That obviously is not a foolproof safeguard because any break in the opposition could allow the order to go forward, but if a president had wisely chosen aides, secretaries, and if the military leadership were what it is supposed to be -- responsible and aware of what is and isn't necessary -- then, a "crazy" presidential command might well be ignored. Of course, that would not be the end of the issue.
The reason Mr. Cirincione's warnings are important is because all of the safeguards that norms once offered us are now absent. That started with Senate's failure to convict Trump in either of his impeachment trials. It was continued by the SCOTUS, when it failed to use the 14th Amendment to bar Trump from running again. Next, was the utter failure of the electorate when it re-elected Trump, a man who should never have been even considered as a candidate for president. Next comes the failure of the Republican Party to do anything to rein Trump in, and their willingness to confirm one unfit and unqualified nominee after another, which has left us with Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense. He has proceeded to weed out any military leaders who are not fully on board. That leaves us without any likelihood that the scenario I described above could prevent the first and unnecessary use of nuclear weapons.
One of the great lessons of the past 11 years, the age of Trump, is that norms are not sufficient protection of anything. All it takes to start a war on democracy, and conceivably an insane use of nuclear weapons, is an irresponsible electorate that elects a president who has no respect for norms and is supported by a political party and a SCOTUS majority that are willing to go along. That is what we have now.
Why didn't Biden do anything about this? Biden was president and during his four years he made some horrendous blunders. Unconditional support for Israel in its war on Gaza and his refusal to step aside were the two most obvious. Even after Trump had been elected, Biden still claimed he would have beaten Trump. That was clearly delusional, but, I believe, it was driven by his ego. I would not be surprised if his ego also prevented him from addressing the issue of nuclear weapons. He had full confidence in himself and had convinced himself that he would beat Trump in 2024, so there was no hurry to do anything about the nuclear weapons question, assuming he recognized there was a problem. If he had any idea that the control of nuclear weapons needed revision, there would be time during his second term.
1) I think this is a great moment for a collective realization that the utter lack of guardrails against the use of nuclear weapons by an American president is unacceptable -- certainly, with regard to a potential first strike. Even when we have a president who isn't demented, this is just a terrible idea.
2) To your last point, Joe and I agree with you. Biden should have acted on this and there's zero excuse for that failure. However, Trump could have reversed any action by Biden upon returning to the White House, which is why...
3) Congressional action is also important -- as Joe notes, with recommendations.
Debra, we may never recover fully from two terms and 13 or so years of Donald Trump. He has raised countless issues that collectively we either never gave any thought to or dismissed as not being serious threats. One of the problems we have now is that the number of things that have to be fixed is overwhelming.
You are right, one critical issue is that of nuclear weapons. As with any number of other things, Trump has shown us that leaving something entirely to the discretion of one person is an invitation for abuse. The pardon power comes to mind immediately.
The unnecessary use of one or more nuclear weapons is, realistically, the worst case scenario. However, what Trump has done to the pardon power undermines the entire idea of this being a country of laws, not men. Or one depraved man in this case. As such, it is critical that the next administration address it as well as nuclear weapons and too many other things to even begin to list.
My concern is there there is now so much that has to be fixed that it won't be possible for a single administration, no matter how committed, to do more than begin the repair work. Fixing things can't be the first order of business, normal governing must be. When one looks at the critical tasks that will confront the in-coming government -- president, House, and Senate -- it appears to me that even an adequate job will require perhaps the most talented and aggressive administration and Congress in our history. It may surpass what this country faced after the Civil War. Lincoln basically forgave the South, which removed the task of deciding how to administer accountability for the rebellion. We can't afford to do that. The decision regarding whom to hold accountable will be a huge one and it will be controversial, since roughly a third of the country, or more, will be on the side of the criminals.
A bare bones list of what will face the next administration:
1. Form the administration.
2. Govern. (Part of this will be how to deal with the SCOTUS. Left as it is, much of what needs to be done may be impossible.)
3. Prioritize domestic repairs and begin the work. (The GOP will not help.)
4. Make decisions about accountability. (The GOP is the target.)
5. Begin repair of international relations. (Why would any country trust the US. when the next presidential election could bring a return to the chaos and stupidity of Trump/Rubio/Hegseth et al.)
Every one of those tasks will likely be as difficult or more so than what any previous administration has ever faced in this country. This is a time when we need a truly extraordinary person to win the presidency. I can’t name anyone right now that I am confident is up to the task and that is not a criticism or the potential candidates, but rather recognition of the severity of the task.
For my part, I think we have an additional task that may be more difficult than anything else, and I have heard a single politician so much as mention this. How to improve our electorate to the point where they won't ever again create these problems by voting for someone as unfit and unqualified as Trump? With a more engaged and better informed electorate Trump (and the Republicans) would have never happened. This is too complicated an issue to say more about here. You've appeared with Waj Ali on Substack and I assume you have heard his concern about the 2032 elections. He wouldn't need to be worried if we had a competent electorate.
Here is an action that's time has come.We're living in, through, and with the most perilous regime in US history. And we the people need to obstruct it before it really kills lots, lots more of folks.
Debra I hope that you can get an Idea from this, it's the concept the particulars can be adjusted
I believe that we’re at as crossroads on many levels in our country with its functioning. On issue…One issue is that money and the inequality it has led to has completely corrupted our lives and governmental/ political system nationally, but even within rural states the dark money has corrupted. Here is what we need to envision as a short cut, a major course correction, rather than waiting a decade or decades. We cannot afford to wait and play the same old game.
Thanks for your efforts. Cliff Krolick
A Constitutional Gathering like a No Kings rally but(convention-like) We the people are at a crossroads. A Reimagining and Rebuilding Of Democracy for all to participate and see
Where is our Courage and Bravery ?
A well organized occupation of and at our Nations Capital,Washington DC. Using legal and judicious purpose to create a new vision, by the people, a democracy that we all feel good about and serves a muti-national-racial, white, black and in between America. There’s work ahead to move us forward not back Over the course of summer and fall ,all national organizations, + any Americans that need to be heard ,Indivisible, No Kings, Move On, Existentialist Republic, ACLU, SPLF, all forward thinking Progressives in Congress, whether former Republican or Democrat will sketch out a constitutional outline, a plan to move the USA ahead toward a constitutionally socialized democratic society.. On issue is the money corruption in both parties. Indivisible/No Kings / and other orgs already have plan outlines
This action would work best with a rotating group of several hundred thousand to a million folks. However, as new folks came some could go home. Contacts and support from DC residents and businesses would be critical. Local people and businesses could support us, a small army of portapoties, could be on hand. A well thought out plan could be put in place, have teams of people take responsibility for a variety of daily tasks, sanitation health, and safety patrols. Daily exercise programs.
Keep in mind the non-violent resistance occupation of our National Gov’t is the effort, and the additional aim is to clearly state: This current regime is legally unacceptable and it must leave permanently or be removed because of its criminal behaviors. These behaviors disregard our laws and directly harm citizens, immigrants and those waiting to be legally here. This regime without the authority of congress has totally dismantled the existing departments that keep the smooth flow of our country alive and has started a war with Iran that has NO intention or plan on to stop. Our occupation has no plan to leave until this regime is dismantled or permanently leaves and all military conflicts cease.
While all this is going on, speakers could be addressing the crowds, some entertain of course. But the work, the work lies ahead. It is up to the people here to build the vision, and show the path ahead that needs to be taken in order to have this vision come true. There will be discussions amongst the group. Cell phones could be employed, text messages in order to come to group consensus, etc. A small team of computer folks can gather data and tally vote outcomes on issues, keep the operation on the straight and narrow as we move on from issue to issue and their resolution in order to bring that vision to fruition.
Another strategy from this plan: if all these organizations come together represented in DC at an event likes been envisioned and spend some months working out details. Congress whenever it became functional again could not ignore all the efforts that we the people have contributed and done. this could be a live event for months, restructuring our government making it more streamlined useful in providing essential funding resources through new legislation that would go to supporting a young growing nation that is providing services for all folks and not just enriching the few.
Thank you, again, for having me on. This was a great conversation. I am so grateful that you opened up your podcast to this discussion.
Truly my pleasure to have you on The Debrief, Joe. You did a phenomenal job. Thank you!
Thank you for all you do Debra! - and sharing this amazingly chilling, but informative and necessary discussion. From an Australian in Europe who cares deeply what’s happening in the US - because it affects ALL of us 🥺✊🏽🙏
You're welcome, Kat! Thanks for tuning in.
What a truly scary subject, but luckily presented by a truly lovely charming expert.
Thanks, Lorraine. Scary, indeed... and really important to discuss. Glad to be able to bring Joe to The Debrief!
This is terrifying. Thank you for having this conversation.
It is, indeed... and you're welcome!
I think there is something missing in Mr. Cirincione's explanations. In a "normal" presidential administration that isn't a cult of personality, the president will appoint competent advisors and the military will not have to deal with a religious zealot like Hegseth, who is a mindless clown. What the US has not done is accept the possibility of our electorate ever being so irresponsible that it would elect someone like Trump. For my part, I simply don't have and never have had that level of confidence in our electorate. Therefore, we didn't think we needed the kind of safeguards against the use of nuclear weapons that Mr Cirincione talks about.
In an ordinary administration, if a competent Secretary of Defense and the military leadership understood that a president was no longer mentally fit to hold responsibility for the use and control of nuclear weapons, they could, in fact, refuse to follow the president's order to employ nuclear weapons in a case where they were clearly not warranted. Mr. Cirincione says that the person who refuses is fired and another person is brought in who will follow the order. But in the circumstances I am describing, that wouldn't work. If there were agreement that the president was "nuts," then the order to fire someone would similarly be ignored. That obviously is not a foolproof safeguard because any break in the opposition could allow the order to go forward, but if a president had wisely chosen aides, secretaries, and if the military leadership were what it is supposed to be -- responsible and aware of what is and isn't necessary -- then, a "crazy" presidential command might well be ignored. Of course, that would not be the end of the issue.
The reason Mr. Cirincione's warnings are important is because all of the safeguards that norms once offered us are now absent. That started with Senate's failure to convict Trump in either of his impeachment trials. It was continued by the SCOTUS, when it failed to use the 14th Amendment to bar Trump from running again. Next, was the utter failure of the electorate when it re-elected Trump, a man who should never have been even considered as a candidate for president. Next comes the failure of the Republican Party to do anything to rein Trump in, and their willingness to confirm one unfit and unqualified nominee after another, which has left us with Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense. He has proceeded to weed out any military leaders who are not fully on board. That leaves us without any likelihood that the scenario I described above could prevent the first and unnecessary use of nuclear weapons.
One of the great lessons of the past 11 years, the age of Trump, is that norms are not sufficient protection of anything. All it takes to start a war on democracy, and conceivably an insane use of nuclear weapons, is an irresponsible electorate that elects a president who has no respect for norms and is supported by a political party and a SCOTUS majority that are willing to go along. That is what we have now.
Why didn't Biden do anything about this? Biden was president and during his four years he made some horrendous blunders. Unconditional support for Israel in its war on Gaza and his refusal to step aside were the two most obvious. Even after Trump had been elected, Biden still claimed he would have beaten Trump. That was clearly delusional, but, I believe, it was driven by his ego. I would not be surprised if his ego also prevented him from addressing the issue of nuclear weapons. He had full confidence in himself and had convinced himself that he would beat Trump in 2024, so there was no hurry to do anything about the nuclear weapons question, assuming he recognized there was a problem. If he had any idea that the control of nuclear weapons needed revision, there would be time during his second term.
Thanks for this, Mason. A few quick replies:
1) I think this is a great moment for a collective realization that the utter lack of guardrails against the use of nuclear weapons by an American president is unacceptable -- certainly, with regard to a potential first strike. Even when we have a president who isn't demented, this is just a terrible idea.
2) To your last point, Joe and I agree with you. Biden should have acted on this and there's zero excuse for that failure. However, Trump could have reversed any action by Biden upon returning to the White House, which is why...
3) Congressional action is also important -- as Joe notes, with recommendations.
Debra, we may never recover fully from two terms and 13 or so years of Donald Trump. He has raised countless issues that collectively we either never gave any thought to or dismissed as not being serious threats. One of the problems we have now is that the number of things that have to be fixed is overwhelming.
You are right, one critical issue is that of nuclear weapons. As with any number of other things, Trump has shown us that leaving something entirely to the discretion of one person is an invitation for abuse. The pardon power comes to mind immediately.
The unnecessary use of one or more nuclear weapons is, realistically, the worst case scenario. However, what Trump has done to the pardon power undermines the entire idea of this being a country of laws, not men. Or one depraved man in this case. As such, it is critical that the next administration address it as well as nuclear weapons and too many other things to even begin to list.
My concern is there there is now so much that has to be fixed that it won't be possible for a single administration, no matter how committed, to do more than begin the repair work. Fixing things can't be the first order of business, normal governing must be. When one looks at the critical tasks that will confront the in-coming government -- president, House, and Senate -- it appears to me that even an adequate job will require perhaps the most talented and aggressive administration and Congress in our history. It may surpass what this country faced after the Civil War. Lincoln basically forgave the South, which removed the task of deciding how to administer accountability for the rebellion. We can't afford to do that. The decision regarding whom to hold accountable will be a huge one and it will be controversial, since roughly a third of the country, or more, will be on the side of the criminals.
A bare bones list of what will face the next administration:
1. Form the administration.
2. Govern. (Part of this will be how to deal with the SCOTUS. Left as it is, much of what needs to be done may be impossible.)
3. Prioritize domestic repairs and begin the work. (The GOP will not help.)
4. Make decisions about accountability. (The GOP is the target.)
5. Begin repair of international relations. (Why would any country trust the US. when the next presidential election could bring a return to the chaos and stupidity of Trump/Rubio/Hegseth et al.)
Every one of those tasks will likely be as difficult or more so than what any previous administration has ever faced in this country. This is a time when we need a truly extraordinary person to win the presidency. I can’t name anyone right now that I am confident is up to the task and that is not a criticism or the potential candidates, but rather recognition of the severity of the task.
For my part, I think we have an additional task that may be more difficult than anything else, and I have heard a single politician so much as mention this. How to improve our electorate to the point where they won't ever again create these problems by voting for someone as unfit and unqualified as Trump? With a more engaged and better informed electorate Trump (and the Republicans) would have never happened. This is too complicated an issue to say more about here. You've appeared with Waj Ali on Substack and I assume you have heard his concern about the 2032 elections. He wouldn't need to be worried if we had a competent electorate.
Here is an action that's time has come.We're living in, through, and with the most perilous regime in US history. And we the people need to obstruct it before it really kills lots, lots more of folks.
Debra I hope that you can get an Idea from this, it's the concept the particulars can be adjusted
I believe that we’re at as crossroads on many levels in our country with its functioning. On issue…One issue is that money and the inequality it has led to has completely corrupted our lives and governmental/ political system nationally, but even within rural states the dark money has corrupted. Here is what we need to envision as a short cut, a major course correction, rather than waiting a decade or decades. We cannot afford to wait and play the same old game.
Thanks for your efforts. Cliff Krolick
A Constitutional Gathering like a No Kings rally but(convention-like) We the people are at a crossroads. A Reimagining and Rebuilding Of Democracy for all to participate and see
Where is our Courage and Bravery ?
A well organized occupation of and at our Nations Capital,Washington DC. Using legal and judicious purpose to create a new vision, by the people, a democracy that we all feel good about and serves a muti-national-racial, white, black and in between America. There’s work ahead to move us forward not back Over the course of summer and fall ,all national organizations, + any Americans that need to be heard ,Indivisible, No Kings, Move On, Existentialist Republic, ACLU, SPLF, all forward thinking Progressives in Congress, whether former Republican or Democrat will sketch out a constitutional outline, a plan to move the USA ahead toward a constitutionally socialized democratic society.. On issue is the money corruption in both parties. Indivisible/No Kings / and other orgs already have plan outlines
This action would work best with a rotating group of several hundred thousand to a million folks. However, as new folks came some could go home. Contacts and support from DC residents and businesses would be critical. Local people and businesses could support us, a small army of portapoties, could be on hand. A well thought out plan could be put in place, have teams of people take responsibility for a variety of daily tasks, sanitation health, and safety patrols. Daily exercise programs.
Keep in mind the non-violent resistance occupation of our National Gov’t is the effort, and the additional aim is to clearly state: This current regime is legally unacceptable and it must leave permanently or be removed because of its criminal behaviors. These behaviors disregard our laws and directly harm citizens, immigrants and those waiting to be legally here. This regime without the authority of congress has totally dismantled the existing departments that keep the smooth flow of our country alive and has started a war with Iran that has NO intention or plan on to stop. Our occupation has no plan to leave until this regime is dismantled or permanently leaves and all military conflicts cease.
While all this is going on, speakers could be addressing the crowds, some entertain of course. But the work, the work lies ahead. It is up to the people here to build the vision, and show the path ahead that needs to be taken in order to have this vision come true. There will be discussions amongst the group. Cell phones could be employed, text messages in order to come to group consensus, etc. A small team of computer folks can gather data and tally vote outcomes on issues, keep the operation on the straight and narrow as we move on from issue to issue and their resolution in order to bring that vision to fruition.
Another strategy from this plan: if all these organizations come together represented in DC at an event likes been envisioned and spend some months working out details. Congress whenever it became functional again could not ignore all the efforts that we the people have contributed and done. this could be a live event for months, restructuring our government making it more streamlined useful in providing essential funding resources through new legislation that would go to supporting a young growing nation that is providing services for all folks and not just enriching the few.